ASHLEY BROMPTON: Welcome, everyone. Thank you for joining our webinar today, and thank you for completing the poll. I personally find the results fascinating in that the Reece's, one, with such an overwhelming majority of the vote. And yet behind the scenes all of the panelists and the logistics team, no one mentioned Reece's anywhere. So I find that very interesting, our sample looked very different than the larger sample. And only one person who doesn't like chocolate. I appreciate this audience already. Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm going to close the poll now. 

I'd like to welcome you to today's webinar. We are pleased to bring you this webinar as part of our 2021 End Abuse of People with Disabilities webinar series. Before we get started today, I want to provide you with some information about the accessibility features of our Zoom webinar platform, as well as how you can interact with us throughout the session today. You should be in listen only, view only mode. This means that you can hear us and see us. But we cannot hear you or see you. If you would like to turn the captioning on, please go to the closed captioning symbol at the bottom of your screen, it says live transcripts. Select the arrow to the right of the icon. And you can either select Show Subtitle or View Full Transcripts. Once you make your selection you'll see the words I am speaking either appear below my video, or to the right of your Zoom window if you click Show Full Transcript. 

Today we have a multilingual space the presentation will be in English, with American Sign Language and Spanish interpretation. You should see one of our ASL interpreters on the screen now. If you requested Spanish interpretation, you should have received an email about how to access it. If you did not see that email, my colleague is posting that information in the chat right now, and we'll do so again in a few minutes as a reminder, and for those folks who join a few minutes please late. We'll pause about every 20 minutes or so for an interpreter switch, this ensures the highest quality of interpretation throughout the session. If you have any issues with the interpreters or the captioning, please let us using the chat or the Q&A, and we will try to problem solve with you. 

We do value complete access in our virtual sessions. If we have a technical problem, we will pause to address the issue. If the issue cannot be resolved for some reason, we may have to cancel the session. If that happens, we will send you an email with further information. Feel free to use the chat to communicate with each other. But if you have a question for the presenters or for us, we'd appreciate if you use the Q&A, which is at the bottom of the screen. It just makes sure that your question doesn't get lost as we continuously see the chat scrolling. 

If you would like to ask a question in American Sign Language, please raise your virtual hand we will confirm your needs so that we can give you video privileges. We're going to try to hold questions until the end, but this session is a little bit different. It's much more interactive, and the panelists really want to hear from you. So in all likelihood they'll sort of be addressing questions as they come in as well. But if there are questions at the end, we will have a dedicated question period. A quick note about the chat pod, participants cannot save the chat or copy and paste from the chat. This is a security measure that Zoom takes. If we share any links in the chat for whatever reason, we will make sure to include them in the participant materials for this session. So that you have access to them. 

Right now if you joined using your web browser, you may only be seeing speaker view, which may prohibit you from seeing all of the panelists today. For example, you might only be seeing the American Sign Language interpreter. If you joined via the Zoom desktop application, which is what we would recommend, you have several viewing options. In the upper right hand corner of your Zoom window you should see a button that says View. It has nine small squares next to it. If you click that button, you can see that you have the option for Speaker View or Gallery View. We recommend Gallery View so that you can see all of the panelists today, as well as the American Sign Language interpreter. 

We will be recording today's session. The webinar recording and transcript will be posted on the End Abuse of People with Disabilities website within two weeks. There are no materials for today's discussion, but a record of attendance will be available for download via link in the chat pod, which I am going to paste right now for you all. We will also share this link at the end of the session as well. Again, if you need a record of attendance, this will be where you will find it. 

Our presenters today are Brintha Jeyalingam, Mercedes Thompson, and Maria Armstrong. Brintha is the senior director of Community Collaborations at My Sister's Place in White Plains New York. Brintha oversees the Community Education and Prevention team, and the DSS/DV collaboration. Before coming to My Sister's Place, she worked with Survivors of Domestic Violence at Saki S-A-K-H-I, for South Asian Women and Safe Homes of Orange County. She also worked at a human rights organization in Bangkok, Thailand, where she led a leadership and advocacy program for women activists from Burma. She has experience in fundraising, development, and event planning, and nonprofit, and higher education settings. 

Mercedes is a paralegal with Legal Aid of Western Ohio, and has been there since 1997. She advocates for survivors safety and stability by supporting survivors and attorneys in protection order, divorce, and child custody related cases. She is currently the project coordinator for the Safety and Accessibility for Everyone, or SAFE collaboration, which seeks to promote increased safety and access to services for survivors with disabilities, by identifying and removing organizational barriers to services. Mercedes was instrumental in coordinating a multi-county disability-- or domestic violence advocate support network, which provides training and resources to advocates in seven counties. She has a degree in political science and extensive training in Social Security, and other government benefits. 

Our third panelist today is Maria. Maria is the project director for Heal of Tri County, a multidisciplinary collaboration in Southern New Jersey, that focuses on creating systemic change within their agencies in order to provide fully accessible healing services to individuals who have experienced domestic violence, and/or sexual violence, who are deaf, hard of hearing, or have hearing loss, and/or are living with intellectual or developmental disabilities. With American Sign Language being her first language, Maria is a CODA, or a Child of Deaf Adults, and has lived her life immersed in deaf culture. In addition to her 20 plus years in business development, project management, and contract management, Maria is a professional American Sign Language interpreter, who works primarily with deaf individuals who are living with severe and persistent mental illness, as well as intellectual and developmental disabilities. Maria loves animals, spending time with her daughter, and is an artist who especially enjoys acrylic painting on Canvas. 

Before I passed it over to Brintha, Mercedes, and Maria, I just want to say today we are getting ready to close out domestic Violence Awareness Month. And we are really looking forward to this conversation in which our panelists are going to explore some of the challenges they've endured, the lessons they've learned, and the evolving conversations they've been having in their work to support survivors of domestic violence with disabilities and deaf survivors. There will be a lot of opportunity to share the challenges you faced, as well as your successes. We encourage you to really actively participate in this session. It's intended to be an opportunity to have a National conversation on what we can do better to provide services for DV survivors with disabilities, and deaf survivors. 

Our panelists today are people, sharing what they have witnessed and learned in their community and organizations. And they want to hear from you so that you can do the same. With that, I'm going to pass it over to our panelists, Brintha, Mercedes, and Maria. Thank you all so much for joining us today. 

BRINTHA JEYALINGAM: Thank you, Ashley. This is Brintha. My pronouns are she, her, hers. Thank you so much for Vera for hosting this wonderful webinar, and also my fellow panelists, Mercedes and Maria. We're really looking forward to having these important conversations around how we have been supporting survivors the past year and a half, and even that even before that to. 

Get us started though, what we really wanted to highlight to begin with is this theme of no survivor justice without racial justice. And we wanted to really bring that home and kind of center the conversation around really what it means to be an inclusive, and anti oppression service provider. I know I speak for My Sister's Place when I say that that's part of our core values and guiding principles, is being an anti-oppression organization. And that includes being an anti-racist organization, anti-heterosexist, anti-ableist, and so on. And so in bringing this conversation together, I really love to think about the intersection of racism. And especially with this conversation, the intersection of racism and ableism. 

My Sister's Place has embarked on a really incredible journey together over the past several years around having conversations about being an anti-racist organization. We've met in small groups, large groups. We've met in training spaces, and workshop spaces with those others in the community, to really talk about the experiences of Black individuals, as well as individuals of color. And so in this context, we're really centering the voices around Black survivors, and survivors of color, also within the disabilities, and the deaf and hard of hearing community. 

So I'd like to kind of start there, and also share a little bit about how our agency has taken on this important work. It really starts with our leadership, our CEO. It starts with many of the staff who have made this commitment, to being inclusive, to being anti-racist. And I think it takes sort of a brave step in the direction of being able to have what might be sometimes difficult conversations, about our own experiences, about what we've been socialized to believe or think. And so that's been some of the conversations we've been having at our agency. The other piece to this too is that we recognize the voices of survivors really need to be brought into the room as much as possible when we're doing this work, right? 

So recently our leadership and several of our staff at My Sister's Place have started, and organized a survivor advisory group, which brought together survivors of various backgrounds, various identities, and really relying on them as the experts to guide this work, and to guide us in this work. So that's kind of how we've been working on this. Again, this is a long journey, and it's a big conversation to have but I'd also love to hear from anyone during this conversation. Our guests and of course Mercedes, and Maria, and my fellow panelists around, how this work has been going on in your organizations as well. 

MERCEDES THOMPSON: This is Mercedes, and my pronouns are she, her, hers. And I'm so excited to be here today, everyone. I can't even tell you. So I wanted to talk a little bit, and sort of piggybacking off of what the great work that Brintha's organization is doing, just to talk about the importance of doing our personal work. And for our organization, we have made a commitment to really trying to look at every aspect of our work with a race, equity lens. And we have also been very fortunate to have leadership who is fully committed, and so we've established an anti-racism resolution which has set out guidelines with clear milestones and action steps that we need to take by certain time frames. And within that structure, we are also meeting a small group. So I am part of the domestic relations group, and we have attorneys, and paralegals, and other support staff who support survivors through the legal process. Whether that's a protection order, or divorce, or custody, whatever that issue is. 

And I find that in the course of our discussions, we have-- in regards to race equity, we have often been saying to each other, how did I not know about that? Or how did I know about this? This is a common occurrence. And I will be very transparent when I say that there are lots of things I didn't know. And one of those is I was unaware until fairly recently of Black Wall Street. And one of the discussions that we have is how are we unaware of all this. And a lot of it is because we live in systems. Racism is more than just interpersonal acts, one against the other. It is a systemic and structural institution that really oversees every aspect of life in this country, particularly for people of color and other marginalized communities. 

And I'm just curious if anybody out there around this virtual table has been in that position saying, how did I not know this? Or if there was something that sort of, very late in the game you thought, gee, why don't I know it? And why this is important is because most of us are in service industries where we are supporting people. So it might be in the domestic violence community, or it might be in the disability community. But we are hopefully trying to do our best to serve people. And we have to pay attention to the intersections. And so if we have no idea about where we sit-in the structures, and we don't have any idea about whether we sit-in a privileged place, or whether we're sitting in a marginalized space. Whether or not we have implicit biases, or whether or not there might be some internalized racism, then it's going to be really hard for us to serve people. 

And I think of intersections as being like-- really, to me it's like identities. And so if you are a disability service provider, and you have a person of color who is meeting with you, they are bringing a whole other identity to that table. And if you're a you're a DV service provider, and you have a person of color who is coming to you, that's another aspect of themselves that we need to consider. And I thought very much about how is it that we can provide adequate services to people if we haven't done the work to know what kind of oppressions they have seen, and what kind of challenges and barriers that they experience. And that's difficult, I think, to take in because we all want to do a really good job, but I don't know if we're doing our best job if we're not considering those intersections. 

And another way that that's problematic is that if we don't have a sense of where our biases are, it's possible and probable actually, that we are causing harm. And whether we intend to harm isn't necessarily important. But how the person is impacted is tremendously important. And so I think it's important to do this work for the purposes of being better able to provide services. And I'm going through this journey that we're on to sort of be part of a movement that is going to hopefully eradicate anything that is oppressive, or any systems that marginalizes or underrepresented individuals. That one of the things that the system does, and it's very good at causing disconnect, and making us be disconnected from one another. And I think, right now I'm thinking in my head two things. One, I don't know if any of you have heard of the Loving Case. It was the 1967 decision, in essence it was just a white man and a Black woman who just wanted to be married. And there were laws that prohibited that. 

And I'm thinking of a discussion that we had in a race, equity meeting last week. Where we showed a Ted Talk with Isabel Wilkerson, who is the author of Caste. And if you have not read it, I'm halfway through. I would recommend it. It's excellent reading. But she told the story of a southern town, and I'm sorry, I don't remember where it was, but there was a law against a Black person and a white person playing checkers. And I thought to myself, and she said this much more eloquently, and I'm paraphrasing. But really imagine how somebody has to be so far in their feelings about seeing such a thing, or being maybe even a part of that game perhaps, that you would then create legislation that would stop that kind of connection. And I think that that's where losing those connections is really set us back a lot, because the system wants us to be disconnected. And when we're disconnected, it means that we can't do all of the things that we would really like to do if we were more connected. And I think we are ready for an interpreter switch. 

OK. So just to go on about the disconnections. And I think of course this disconnect has caused tremendous harm to communities of color, people of color, for more than 400 years. And the harm has been significant enough that I don't think I need to describe it here. But I will say that I also believe that people sitting in places of privilege are also harmed, and by not having these connections. 

I think the community-- I'm speaking as a Black woman, but I will say from my own experience that being connected to communities of color is so enriching, and diversity is such a tapestry, and provides such texture to life that if there are systems in place that keep us disconnected, that is a great loss. And again I'm speaking for myself as a Black woman, and I'll just say that if you have not been in close relationship or been loved by a Black person, you have missed out on so much in this world, because we are a resilient, resourceful, proud, and strong people of ancient lineage. We have made contributions to this planet long before we came to this country. Our history predates our being drug into this system. We are loving, and nurturing, and we have a love of the arts, we have a sense of style and fashion, we love color, and we love to sing, and dance. And we have, in the face of tremendous oppression, great hope that systems will be changed. And that all of us can live authentic lives without worrying about being penalized, or oppressed in any way. And we are the creators of jazz, and that makes us really cool cats, and great to know. 

And so I think that having this disconnect is harmful. And that can be cured by doing our work. And I think those people who have done their work, I think we create connections despite the system. So for myself, I have had certainly the love and support of Black people of my life, but I've been fortunate enough also to have been loved, and supported, and mentored by people who did not look like me. And I will say that some of those people are sitting around this virtual table today, in an effort to hear what we all have to say, all of you, but also in support of me. And I think that's a beautiful thing. It's so absolutely important for us to do our work. So that we can create something better than what we have for future generations. It's just so vitally important. 

MARIA ARMSTRONG: Hi, everybody. It's Maria Armstrong here. My pronouns are she, her. I'm a white woman with long Brown hair wearing a Black shirt with a teal sweater, dull-light background. And Mercedes, I have to say, I love hearing you speak. I just love what you bring. And I have for a long time now, we've known each other for what? At least a year or so. So I just-- and that's one of the contributions I want to make to this particular piece of our conversation. Me being a white woman, it's important for me to be aware of how much space I'm taking in a conversation, in a room, and an environment. And I have a tendency to become so excited to share information, but I also want to spend more energy, and being intentional around learning, and allowing for space for other people because that enriches my life. So I also-- and in another context, having to consider say, doing a certain project, being intentional and mindful around, am I the most effective person to be doing this particular thing? So that is something that's been on my mind lately. 

And the conversations that we have in our agencies around anti oppression and anti-racism, they're hard, they're hard conversations to have. And being vulnerable and looking within is a hard task as well. So one thing I do want to point out is that we want to recognize the value of having diversity in the workplace, when we think of staff. And of course, we we're multidimensional people, and we bring so much to the table. And we have so much great potential to learn from people who are different from us. So I know that in my experience in working with people with disabilities, and deaf individuals, people with hearing loss, that a lot of people tend to be hesitant to disclose their need for accommodations, or that they have a disability. For people who are looking for work, they're concerned that they won't get hired, they'll be treated differently, that there are people will doubt that they can succeed, or that their job will be at risk. 

And then for people who are seeking our services, that they'll be turned away or treated unfairly. So one thing I try to make sure is that we're not doing the work in a way where we're just checking boxes, because sometimes agencies will say, well, we need to get with the times, or we need to-- and that's not the point. The point is really, the gains and the tremendous value that comes from that diversity. Many deaf people, people living with hearing loss and other disabilities, they faced a lifetime of navigating challenges, and problem solving. So they are incredible assets to bring to an agency at any level. And then also thinking of the other end that individuals who've experienced harm may feel more comfortable working with somebody who can relate to them. 

So my hope is that agencies would evaluate their why. So why do they want a diverse team? And if an agency takes on the mindset that we need and value differences, and that by creating that welcoming, and supportive, and accessible environments, refocusing hiring practices, and being intentional, that it creates that inviting environment for real diversity. I actually just saw, you know those mystery games that they have out now where you can get a box and you solve a crime or something? Well, there was one that I saw today actually, and it showed at the bottom that we are intentional in hiring people with disabilities. And looking at just the language that they shared, oh, you may receive an email from us that may have misspellings, just so you're aware, we promote inclusivity in our work, and hiring. And I just thought, wow, right? This is something that we all should be doing. 

So I do find that these conversations are difficult. And being open and vulnerable is difficult. But one of the things I've also been paying attention to is the process within agencies to do that kind of work. And there has to be a foundation of trust in order to do it, especially with a large agency where there's various levels of staff. And if that foundation is suffering, then there's often little that can be done to make these difficult conversations effective, especially in that large group setting. So the strength of the foundation needs to often be addressed as well. 

MERCEDES THOMPSON: This is Mercedes again. I wanted to take a minute to touch on something that you said, Maria. I've been part of two groups, one in my workplace, and one outside my workplace. And I agree with you. I really feel that this work, especially doing the power personal work is best done in a small group setting. I think in order to be vulnerable, you need to have those small groups. And from what I've seen and through my own experience, I will say that I think that there is something to be said for having these conversations in a group of people over a period of time, because this is really a journey, right? We're never going to stop our learning process. And we shouldn't-- I know for myself I'm never going to be wise enough, or smart enough, or woke enough that I can say I no longer have work to do. So I think it's really important to have those groups, and those safe brave spaces where we can actually be vulnerable, and speak to the things that are in our hearts, and the things that are hard to touch because it is uncomfortable to talk about these things. 

And I know from my own experience, I have taken an implicit bias test, I did not like what I found. I was uncomfortable, and it did not feel good. But as a Black woman, I knew that I can't ask for justice I don't give to other people. And so it was important for me to do my personal work, I'm not done. This journey again will last a lifetime, and I think that same thing applies to agencies. Agencies can't just-- this is going to be the long term. Employees are going to come, employees are going to go. Leadership is going to come, leadership is going to go, and they're going to bring in their own biases, and their own places where they are in this journey. 

And so again, it really emphasizes to me the value of personal work and doing it. But that small group setting is vital, I think, to getting a lot of meaningful work done. And having sat in at least two groups like that. And seeing the value of it, and it's tremendous. So if can find a group or start a group, do that thing because it would be beneficial down the line. And I wanted to start with a question. This is the first question everybody. And I want you to be as responsive as you would wish. But our question is, what anti-suppression efforts has your agency taken on? And what's worked and what hasn't worked? So what have you done? What worked? And what didn't work? We'd love to hear from you. 

Yes, and please feel free to use the chat everyone. [LAUGHS] Attending REI meeting trainings, yes. Yeah, yeah, someone is mentioning that they started a diversity and Inclusion Committee, but it's been hard to get staff to buy in, especially representational. And if someone has a suggestion on the panel about how to cure that, what I will say is we're not going to be able to take everybody with us, everybody is not going to get on the train. But don't let that stop your train, keep your train going. But if people have suggestions, please feel free-- We have some wonderful comments coming in. Someone loves the implicit bias survey. Yeah, yeah. And done one on race and disability. Now I need to do the one on disability. So if you have a link to that, could you drop it in the chat. Thank you. 

Continuing conversations, number of committees, and it's been a slow process. And that's the thing I want to say too, it is a slow process. And honestly, I think it should be. I think this is something that you want to be enduring, and it needs to be intentional, and you need to have commitment to it. And it's OK if that work goes slow, as long as the work keeps moving. Because I think that we we're in a position in history where I think we can really get some stuff done. But we can't be today as we were in past years. I think about my mother and her description of the Civil Rights movement. And a lot of times when we speak together we're shaking our heads, because we are talking about the same things in 2021, that I was talking about in 65. So I think we're at a place to really make some movement. 

Have some book clubs, and movie clubs focused on learning more about marginalized groups, yes. And I will say, book clubs are a good place to start, folks. If you don't know how to get people together, choose a book, whatever that might look like. I would suggest Me And White Supremacy, and I'm sorry I'm forgetting the author's name. But that's a great place to start, especially for people just sort of dipping their toes into anti anti-racism work. But it's a great place. And that's how my second group started. We started as a book club. They just wanted to keep the conversation going, and now we're I think almost a year old. Yes, Leila Said. Thank you, Jamie. Thank you so much. 

Great conversations and book clubs, absolutely. Intersperse books with shorter reading with videos, and podcasts. That sounds a lot like my work group led by my good friend and managing attorney, Lucinda. She is a fan of all of those mediums. And it works really well because it draws people in. Not everybody wants to read. That's not their thing, or read long book. So that's great. Bringing in speakers and presenters for staff to discuss working with survivors of different backgrounds. Thank you, Kim. And being culturally aware and accommodating, absolutely. Great, great, great. Someone's found that honest conversations are hard but necessary. Sometimes just saying the hard things and asking questions can be so healing. Yes, absolutely. And I think that's another that happens, we get afraid to ask the questions because we're afraid of how that will be perceived. Afraid to show our ignorance, afraid of offending people. And I think again that's the benefit of having a small group that's a safe brave space for you to do that in. 

This is great, wonderful. Yeah, short videos, wonderful. OK. In putting a best effort into this work we don't always get it right. And that can make you feel bad, but can take those lessons learned moving forward, absolutely. That's a beautiful. Fantastic, fantastic, keep it going everyone. Think we're going to move into our next segment. But please keep the ideas coming, this is so beneficial for everyone around our virtual table. 

MARIA ARMSTRONG: Yes, it's Maria speaking. And I have to say, I'm looking at the chat and we are here to learn from you, as much as you are here to hear us. So I really appreciate all of the feedback because we can't be all knowing of all things, right? So there's certainly a benefit to really getting some rich feedback around all of this. But yes, let's move on to our next segment. But please keep it going. So we wanted to talk a little bit about how this then translates into ensuring access to survivors, to services, virtually and in person. 

So we have gone through a rough couple of years with the pandemic, with civil unrest. There's a lot that's been happening that have impacted all of us. So in focusing on access, what I've been learning is that many times we come across the need, and we're reactive to meet that need. Somebody comes to an agency for services, and has a specific thing that they need in order to have access to services, and to be able to participate. And I believe that we need to begin to reframe our thinking around access to be more proactive. So for every project and service that we have, we should be thinking, what do we need to do to ensure that we can provide access to the most people? And how can we be more prepared to meet the needs of every survivor. 

Now, things may be different in different parts of the country, the challenges are different. I know even in New Jersey, where I am, we provide services in three different counties. And the challenges of one County can be very different from the challenges in another. Whereas one transportation is a simple thing. Whereas in another, transportation is the biggest issue. So these are things that are really conversations that we have to have within our agencies, and really gathering the data from our own environments. But that open idea around reframing our approach is something that I feel is integral to everything. So the way survivors have engaged with services has changed. Many agencies now are offering a hybrid approach to services. In-person, and remote. And so it's important for agencies to prioritize communication. So communication, I emphasize, just communication because it's always a two way street. It's not, oh, we're providing an interpreter for a deaf person, or we're providing an auxiliary aid or some technology so that person can communicate. Communication is a two way street. And before I move further, I'd like to pause for an interpreter switch. 

OK, great. So we are ready. So I just want to emphasize how communication is for both people, and it's a two way street always. So reframing that thought process around providing that for the other person, it really is not the case. It is for both. So when we talk about serving deaf individuals who use ASL, I've noticed that the pool of interpreters that we use for in-person services may be different than who we use for remote services, because not all interpreters that an agency may use or work with are set up to provide remote services effectively. One of the things that I hold as a value for myself, with my experience, and being raised in a deaf family, and having just being immersed in a deaf environment, is that we want to be able to provide deaf individuals with the opportunity to be included in the decisions that are made of which interpreter they can use. 

And then also for all individuals who have a need for support, they should have a say in the supports that they need. So we always know that they're the experts of their own experience. So and in a crisis situation deaf individuals feel that they want confidence in the communication going smoothly. They don't need the pressure of working with somebody maybe that they don't know, or trying to ensure that they're being understood, if they can have some say in what we're able to provide, that would be of value. And then also having interpreters vetted and trained in trauma informed interpreting, that is one of the things that we've noticed is valuable as well. 

So during the last couple of years of change, I noticed that how agencies use interpreters has also changed. So you hire an interpreter, and they show up. And the interpreter kind of takes the lead on where they stand, or what they do, or it could be some communication. When it's virtual it's very different. There's technology aspects that are involved that we need to be aware of. How do we incorporate an interpreter effectively? And Vera has been great about being a good role model I think for this. Then also, one of the things I've noticed is that there's an increase in use of virtual chat and texting that victim services agencies are partaking in. But we all know that communicating in writing has its challenges. This is something that we've all experienced likely, with texting a friend or a family member, and things get confusing or misunderstood because there's no tone. So doing that effectively is part of the work. How do you do advocacy work effectively in writing? 

But then I started thinking about in working with deaf individuals, individuals who use English as a second language, individuals with intellectual and developmental disabilities, it comes with the challenge of making sure that communications understood. So ASL grammar and structure is very different from English. And so we're learning that there's so much importance in using plain language when you're communicating. Making sure that you steer clear of using metaphors, and analogies, and acronyms, when you're communicating and doing advocacy work by text or by virtual chat. Being clear, concise, communicating, one message at a time, matching the pace of the person. 

And then, of course, there's the other end of it, which is, how to ensure your understood? Which reflective listening, and repeating, and restating, those are things that are valuable to know. But the landscape has changed. And now that we're providing more of this work, more investment needs to be made on making sure that advocates are properly trained on how to communicate with people with varying communication needs. 

MERCEDES THOMPSON: This is Mercedes again. And I'm speaking from the standpoint of a public interest law employee. And so for a lot of the survivors that we work with, the access had to do not so much with our services per se, particularly during the pandemic, but they had a lot to do with how to actually access courts. And so one of the first things that happened is that there were some jurisdictions or counties who just had rules all over the place. There was nothing that was uniform. And so how we approached our clients and survivors was from a standpoint of really trying to center them. Because what they had access to differed from person to person, and was very unique. So for those of our clients who didn't have access to say, internet, or to laptops, or the ability to connect to Zoom, and their protection or their hearings had been set, what the courts did in some areas was that they set up these Zoom rooms, where the survivor could come in and they could actually have their hearing in a separate space that kept them somewhat protected, and that they hadn't to be actually going to the courthouse. And that was helpful for some folks. 

Prior to the pandemic, actually our offices were set up we. Were prepared to do Zoom. We have seven offices all over Western Ohio. And so we had the capabilities to do that in our conference rooms. And because our offices closed at a certain point, it made it even safer, it was definitely possible to do those Zoom hearings with survivors in that space in a distanced way with PPE. So that was helpful for some folks as well. But as an agency, one of the things we just had to do is really be very client centered. It's one of those things that we've prided ourselves on. But I think the pandemic made us really take a harder look at looking at each survivor as an individual. 

And so in some instances, one instance in particular, we had an attorney working with the survivor who needed to do a Zoom hearing. And she had an old laptop that she was no longer using. She had her husband clean it, get everything out of it that would be sensitive in the way of information. And so she had internet, but was able to use our laptop to access that hearing. And I have to just say that for a lot of our survivors, these remote hearings were perfect. It made them so less anxious because they didn't have to be in court with their abusers. They could participate in their hearing from a comfortable space. And so that was really one of the-- we have to be having these hearings virtually due to the pandemic, that would be what I would say, was a benefit to our survivors. 

I would also say that we've had to think about how our clients, the access that they have in terms of even phone service. There are a lot of folks that don't have telephones. Or I don't know if anybody remembers back during the Obama era there was a certain phone that was put out that gave people free access, a certain number of free minutes. And so we try to be very careful to preserve those minutes because people need them for emergencies in case their children have some kind of emergency at school. So being really thoughtful about how much access people have. And is this really something that you need to talk on the phone about? Is it something that you could text about? And many of our clients really said that can you text me instead of call because I'm not using minutes then. So that became a creative way, of course, discussing the safety parameters of texting. But became a way for them to preserve their minutes, and for us to be in communication. 

For some folks, it was an issue that they might have had the technology. So they have a laptop. They have the internet, but they had never used a Zoom platform. And so even prior to the pandemic, folks in our health and public benefits group, the managing attorney there, Rebecca, and the administrative assistant had already set up a Zoom or Teams cheat sheet. And they really created a document that had screenshots, and took them step by step through. And then what they would do is these mock Zoom hearings, so they would make sure that they could get on, they'd get off again, and get on, and they do this a number of times until people felt comfortable. So it's really about opening access to really what the people we serve need. And that could look so many different ways, but just being very creative about it. 

BRINTHA JEYALINGAM: This is Brintha. Yeah, I totally agree, that peace about being creative. I think that many of our staff had to really think on their feet, and pivot and be very flexible in terms of providing both in-person and virtual services. The point about the court hearings that you made, Mercedes, made me think about in Westchester County here in New York, there was actually some community efforts to set up laptops and other devices for hearings at various churches and faith-based organizations. So even individuals that needed to appear for court that didn't have access at home, or whether it was technology internet devices, they could go to different locations around the County to participate in that hearing, or that a court appointment. So that was something that was a great effort by many of the folks here in the County. 

The other piece that My Sister's Place had taken on, in addition to probably many of you as service providers is-- I saw someone mention the chat virtual appointments. So we did set up telehealth appointments for anyone that was comfortable, and able to use them. As My Sister's Place as actually kind of on a journey towards becoming a more accessible organization for the Deaf and hard of hearing community, we've tried to really think about ways that this is going to work for deaf survivors, deaf and hard of hearing survivors. And we've had the pleasure of working with one of our amazing project coordinators who's from the deaf community, to really advise us on some of the things that may work and then that may not work. 

Earlier we talked about trauma informed interpreting, so we've really gotten a lot of great feedback from our sign language interpreters in terms of various signs that someone may use, especially when we're talking about domestic violence or violence in general, that could actually be very triggering. So we're thinking through the different ways that, how can we sign and communicate in a way that is not going to really retraumatize or trigger a survivor in a way that would make services disrespectful, and just harmful. So that's another point that just made me think of that. Our staff have also been incredible as far as pivoting to meet folks outside if needed. 

So at the height of the pandemic, when a lot of the indoor appointments and meetings were not possible, when SAFE and we're going to talk about safety planning and a little bit, but when SAFE-- and when it was deemed sort of, the survivor was agreeable to it, we would be able to meet survivors out in the community, whether it was a park or whether it was another outdoor setting, to communicate, to talk, and so forth. So those are some of the things that we recently kind of went through. And I think like Maria was saying earlier, it's really got us thinking about how we want to do this work long term, and keep this going so it's not just as a reactive measure in response to the pandemic, but how are we actually going to be proactive, and making sure our services are accessible, excuse me to everybody. 

MARIA ARMSTRONG: This is Maria, again. Yeah, I really appreciate what you're saying, and all the work that's been done around this, and continues to be done. I know there's still so much to learn, and a long way to go in some areas. But just the idea of considering this and taking action is very warming. So when I consider safely providing in-person services now, one of the things that kind of dawned on me is the idea of clear masks. And clear masks are something that a lot of people see me wear, and love it. They're like, oh, that's such a great idea. Oh, I like that, where did you get that? And when you really think about working with people with disabilities, or working with deaf individuals, or individuals that you have no idea whether or not they're experiencing hearing loss or anything like that, or survivors in general, just anybody being able to see more of your face is a comfort. 

So I actually support the idea of all staff wearing clear masks as much as possible, if not all the time when you have to wear a mask, because it doesn't just benefit a few, it benefits everybody. And that can really be comforting for staff. It can be comforting for the individuals we serve. And it's also a way to show that you care about accessibility, and you care about helping survivors feel more comfortable to ask for accommodations. 

And speaking of accommodations, we're all working on how to be more robust in the types of accommodations that we have. A policy that's very strong. Oh, and I see in the chat talking about clear masks. There's a couple of companies that I've used. I bought cloth ones on Etsy, but clear mask is a brand, and also the communicator, which is by Safe 'N' Clear. They are also too that-- And I think one was just recently FDA approved to be used in hospital environments as well. So yeah, more and more is becoming available. 

But I have been hearing a lot about the use of hearing loop systems in agencies, and in buildings. And I'm trying to learn more about them and the intricacies of it, but that seems to be a real up and coming thing where hearing aids and cochlear implants have telecoil technology, to where they can just have a looping system installed in a room or in a building, and they have access to sound that way. So those are things that I would love to consider on a grand scale. But if that's not feasible, personal amplification systems, and tablets with different accessibility apps, and plain language and visual documents, there's so much that can be done, screen readers to make services welcoming and accessible. 

Because we have no idea who's going to be reaching out to us. We have no idea who's going to be knocking on the door, calling, walking right in, and we need to be prepared to serve a variety of needs. And allowing staff to have access to all of that, and knowing how to use them. Because that really creates an environment where it feels safer for people with disabilities to know that you're going to be supporting them. 

BRINTHA JEYALINGAM: Yeah, thanks, Maria. This is Brintha. I think, yeah going to your point around safe spaces, and really kind of rethinking-- if you just take a moment and look around your room that you're in, or wherever you are, or an office that you're working in, looking at accessibility has really brought us to a place where we're considering placements of whether it's furniture, or lighting, or windows not only in a trauma informed sense, but also in an accessibility sense. Back when the pandemic first hit, our shelter team was really stop, and didn't close down. Kept going 100%. 

And one of the things that was very quickly, had to be considered was, what are some of the guidelines, and procedures around quarantining for residents, and survivors that test positive. So our team was amazing in coming up with a plan as far as identifying the room, and the facility, and sort of like, a separate place. But we also were thinking about how is this accessible and how is this accommodating for someone who may be deaf or hard of hearing, right? Does that still work? And what are some other considerations that we may have to take. And so we've been doing, little by little, taking steps to ensure that our facilities are also accessible, and also trauma informed. And like Maria said, not just for thinking about it in terms of one individual, and one group of people, or one population, but thinking about it in terms of something that will benefit everyone, right? Regardless of who you are. 

And I think we are going to switch interpreters. 

MARIA ARMSTRONG: I was just going to say that, it's Maria. 

OK, great. So it's burning again. So I we wanted to talk a little bit about safety planning, and how that's changed in the last couple of years. And so I know that the feedback I've gotten from our agencies is that technology is really where we're being more robust in safety planning because it's a higher priority now, and it's not-- I think the thing I want to add really, is around the idea that technology safety planning would be valuable in any agency that provides services to individuals with disabilities. So working together, having a victim services agency and a disabilities agency working together to provide that type of information is of significant value. Because one of the difficulties in especially a hybrid or remote approach, is it's very hard to work with people on technology by phone. That is one of the barriers I think, that is still out there, that still exists, that we would love some feedback around, is that when it's talking about technology, if you don't have the device in front of you-- there's a lot of-- I am not technology device savvy either. So I think I would have a hard time navigating that by phone. 

So if you're working in a disabilities organization, and you have programs, and you provide services in person, or housing, or whatever the case may be for with people with disabilities, it would be a great opportunity to come together with a victim services agency to share safety planning information in a way that individuals can easily understand. So making sure that those are developed in a accessible way can be a value to anybody. And honestly, any survivor that comes into our doors who have experienced domestic violence, the last thing they want is to deal with complicated paperwork. They don't need that right now. They have no time for that. [CHUCKLES] So it would be valuable, honestly, for anyone to consider the types of documents that they have. 

The other focus, aside from a robust technology safety planning feature, that we know that individuals who've experienced domestic violence, they struggle to leave. There's the mental toll of the abuse, lack of resources, and leaving is not always the safest option at a given time. But the pandemic has created this new added barrier that the outside world has become almost just as dangerous as their inside world. So aside from building in more technology safety planning, there's greater emphasis on how to safely plan when the individual is not intending to leave. Or factoring in the idea that now the window of opportunity has shortened because people are working from home more, there's less willingness to go places. You used to go out and hang out with friends maybe, and now because of the pandemic, you're a little more careful, and where you go. Or more limited, that creates limited opportunity for people to leave. 

So really taking those things into consideration. And then also, we're still in the midst of a pandemic. So there's some new experiences that survivors have been facing, that we have not considered before. Like individuals who cause harm preying on their fear of contagion. Or using COVID as an excuse for the harm that they're causing, because they're so stressed out. And we've all likely seen that in the media, a cough can be made into a weapon. So the landscape has changed. 

MERCEDES THOMPSON: This is Mercedes. And I see in the chat that someone is asking about cultural sensitivity training for law enforcement, with the concern that they're not trained enough to address specific cultures. And I think that's a very valid sentiment, and something to be considered. And it all goes back really, to looking at those intersections when were a safety planning with people. I mean, that's a specific situation, but the concern ties into one of my concerns, which is, if you're working with a Black survivor, or a survivor of color, quite frankly, when you introduce perhaps, a remedy of calling law enforcement, you have to do that with care. Because again, it goes back to doing our work, right? If we are not aware of the historical tension between communities of color and law enforcement, and the first thing we say as we're creating this plan is, well, we're going to call the police. And you don't have any sensitivity as to why people of color are not going to always just call the police, that in a fact, leaves that person less safe. 

And so it's all about safety, right? They're driving the bus. And safety plans by the nature of what they are, are very individualized, right? Each person has their own specific sets of facts. And how they're going to be safe will vary from person to person. And that has a lot to do with culture in this society, and relationships to law enforcement. And I will add, that people with disabilities have much higher rates of violent interactions with law enforcement, than people who don't have disabilities. And so also saying to them, well, just call the police, doesn't necessarily make them safer. And that's a consideration, when we call the police, is somebody safer? Not always. And that's something to really think about as we present that. And I'm not saying it's wrong to make that a part of the plan, it's very right to do. 

And Maria, and Brintha, and I had some conversations prior to this webinar. And Maria suggested, and I agree that might be something that you want to introduce a little later in the conversation, because if that's the first thing-- I will tell you, if that's the first thing somebody said to me, I would immediately be thinking, you have no understanding of me, and why I wouldn't do that. So I think it's really important to be very individualized in terms of making sure that we're having some cultural humility when we're doing a safety plan. And it's just all about keeping people safer, that's what's there. And I think about the connections between race, and disability, and interactions with law enforcement. 

And the reality is Eric Garner, and Sandra Bland were Black folks with disabilities who were killed by the police. So I think it's a real concern for any of us living in communities of color, when we call the police we don't know how that's going to end up well. And even though we may be seeking, help we may be receiving harm. 

BRINTHA JEYALINGAM: This is Brintha. Thank you for that, Mercedes. And I also wanted to add too, that safety planning really should be also thought of as an ongoing process. So what might have been discussed in your first, initial meetings, many of this already, could very much change later in the week, or later in the month. So I do think considerations around race and disability when safety planning with survivors are of utmost importance, a few people have been asking about, excuse me, law enforcement training. I don't know how many other domestic violence agencies offer this in addition to service, direct services. I know My Sister's Place, and a few others in the area. Also, we have educators and trainers that are out in the community training on domestic violence, and human trafficking as well. Which is another part of our agency's work. 

So that's a good place to start as far as seeking resources. Who is in your community? Who are the DV organizations that may also be able to provide training? Other ways to approach this, I know My Sister's Place has developed really great relationships with some of the various precincts in the county. But even just to kind of reach out, and have-- start with the one on one conversation, to really share about the work that we do with survivors, and what some of the experiences our survivors that we've worked with have shared with us around working with law enforcement, around working with other service providers in the community. And I think there's a lot of considerations there to take around the experiences of those with disabilities, or those in the deaf community as well. 

We have also gotten a lot of questions around trauma informed interpreting. And I believe Vera is actually a great resource for that. So we may be sharing some information around how to contact someone at Vera for interpreter recommendations, or how to find out if the interpreter is in your area are trauma informed. So those are some resources that we can definitely share in the chat as well. 

MARIA ARMSTRONG: Hey everyone, this is Maria. So I know that we only have about 20 minutes left. And I want to touch on one more area. So before we kind of open it up to any more questions and to get some feedback, and it's around staff, it's a staff topic. So one of the things that I've been aware of is the idea that victim service agencies, and disabilities agencies have not closed during this pandemic. And have had to work really hard during incredibly difficult times, navigating the pandemic, civil unrest, quick changes, and how we do things in our agencies, on the fly changes that changed so much, in order to continue to provide meaningful services to the individuals we serve. So we're in a new place where some areas are opening back up, some are still able to provide some remote services, but yet more in-person activities are happening. 

There's still a risk in with COVID around, and the variants. Civil unrest is still obviously something that's in the forefront. And it has the potential to cause absolute incredible stress on our staff. So they're navigating all the same fears that we are, and the world is right now, while being in a field where vicarious trauma is a real thing. 

So figuring that everybody is going through such an incredibly difficult time in the last couple of years, children in school, and not in school, and am I at risk? Family members, friends, we've experienced loss, and pain. There has been so much that has happened. And now an increase, or an influx of domestic violence survivors who will be in need of resources. So how are we balancing the needs of staff, as well as the needs of the agency to prevent burnout, for retention, to maintain health and job satisfaction? So that they're able to then provide the best care to the people who seek services with us. 

Being flexible and supportive in the approaches to prevent, or to assist with staff burnout is a challenge. So I found that some agencies have a very rigid view of how things should be done, and put a lot of emphasis on fairness. And they believe that fairness is about equality, or being equal. And we know that that's not the case. So moving away from that rigid thinking and having those open conversations around how can we do things differently. So we talk a lot about being person centered in our work, and that everybody's an individual that we work with, and their needs are going to be different. We also need to consider that for our staff as well. 

So how are we responding to staff? I find that that's critical because cultivating relationships is really what's necessary for an environment to be successful. So I want people to consider what actions are we taking, and how are we behaving in our day to day lives that are actually supporting staff, and being able to do this hard work? Sometimes agencies will offer self-care things, which are of value, absolutely. But how good is it when the front line staff isn't able to make it on the days that they're scheduled? Or you offer something to certain staff, but yet, oh, the people that are on call that day can't participate. Are we really thinking about the needs of all of our staff? And then are we cultivating our relationships in a way that helps them feel as though they have permission to ask us for what they need. 

And are we considering them? Are we truly taking it in or are we just nodding our heads and saying, oh, but that's just the way it is. We can't do anything about it. So fairness doesn't mean equal, and equal doesn't mean equality. So we need to work towards finding ways to keep our staff healthy, and that may require significant changes to how we approach things. And I'd love to hear from the participants today on what has worked, and what hasn't worked in your agency to create that atmosphere of support and self-care in the workplace. Love to hear that feedback. 

Oh, I do see some people are asking, what are ways that you think we can help staff? One of the things that I'm a proponent for is the relationship building aspect. So for me it's all about the relationships. Taking in what people need, and also being flexible in what we're providing to individuals. Trying to work through that rigidity, and the fear around-- well, if we do something for one person, it's going to cause an uproar for everybody else. And that's not always the case. It is it is really about truly listening to the needs, and supporting the needs of the actual person that you're working with. 

Also considering positions that have flexibility. And really, flexibility is the word of the day, right? Flexibility in this aspect. So there have been-- and I've heard some where they've given you an extra day off, or have worked with people to build in yoga hours, and stuff like that, or just giving people the flexibility to have accommodation. Some people are dealing with serious illnesses, or have chronic pain issues. So accommodations aren't necessarily for a specific group of people, it's for everybody, it's for everybody. I think that that typically would start with the relationship and building trust to see what can happen, what can we do? We've learned that throughout this pandemic that we were able to change awfully quick in how we did things just because we were forced to. Let's not be forced to by waiting for staff to leave, and instead start working on how do we cultivate relationships with our greatest assets, which are the people that work in our agencies. 

MERCEDES THOMPSON: This is Maria-- This is Maria-- [CHUCKLES] This is Mercedes, everybody. I just sort of wanted to say very quickly, Maria, that for employers, this is not a good time to not be honoring and respecting employees. People are leaving professions in droves, and they're not returning. And so I think it's a real mistake to not be being mindful of the mental health, and the stress, and the burnout that staff is experiencing. Particularly Maria, as you were mentioning in the beginning, we've been through a rough 18 months. Some people have suffered loss, other folks it's been-- just a nightmare in terms of the political unrest that we're experiencing in this country. And I think right now, I mean from my point of view, this is the time maybe for employees to have some frank conversations if it's safe to do that around the treatment of staff, and what they can expect in the way of supports for self-care, and for just mental health. 

And we see a lot of comments about mental health days, and these sorts of things which I wholly recommend. It would be so great to have those kinds of supports in workplaces. And I'm seeing that some are much more supportive than others. So it's something to think about, how you can make that happen in your workplaces. 

BRINTHA JEYALINGAM: This is Brintha. I think we're ready for an interpreter switch. Yeah, and just to add to that around, like, yeah people are mentioning various things like building in time for paid self-care. And it's really about setting the culture, and setting the expectations around the work that we're doing just within your teams, and then it kind of grows out of there, right? So I think, like Maria mentioned earlier, starting to have conversations, and building the relationships, and getting the trust there, and then staff feel confident to come to you, or to anyone with the request with the question. 

The other thing to kind of reframe self-care, because I think that word, and that term has kind of become overused, and meant to mean different things to different people. But reframing it to community care. So really addressing it on more of a systems level rather, than just the individual level. Someone mentioned in the chat about salaries and getting paid more, and that's a really important point to make, because you can set up all the meditation sessions, or the yoga sessions. But at the end of the day, if someone doesn't feel like they're being compensated well enough for the work that they're doing, it's it can quickly lead to that kind of fatigue, and burnout. 

We did have, this is still Brintha, we did have one question that came up in the Q&A for Maria. And it was around the use of the TTYs and not videophones. And so the individual had asked that their understanding is that TTYs are not used very much any more by people who are deaf, are you aware of sources of funding for DV programs to get videophones, and get training on using them? When DV programs have them, do they use their state's relay? In our state it's Virginia relay for the interpreting. 

MARIA ARMSTRONG: Hi there, it's Maria. Actually, I have not had to face that issue because we have deaf staff that have been able to acquire videophones within our agency. And we actually hire interpreters to provide communication access. Mostly because even though we have access to relay when we need to, want to be selective in who we use, and also to give individuals the preference, or who they prefer to use as interpreters. And this allows us to ensure that there's the trauma-informed interpreting when we can. 

I know there's been some questions around, how do you ensure that people or interpreters have received training around it? And I know that Vera will address this because they're a great resource for this. But I have actually taken training through the Catie Center, C-A-T-I-E, Catie Center. They have a pretty fantastic program in providing trauma informed interpreting. And also, when we bring on new interpreters and we contract with them, we asked them about what they've taken as far as trauma informed interpreting. And we're also considering putting together a training ourselves around that. 

But the work that I envision, because we're still in that process, we're still in the early phases of our work as a collaboration, my goal is to ensure that we have that vetting process where we can evaluate the skills of our interpreters before contracting with them, or as part of the contracting process, just to make sure that they have what we need in providing the services. Because that communication piece is so important, and an interpreter is part of the relationship. They are a facilitator of communication, but they are representing both sides of a conversation. And we need to ensure that it's being done in a way that's safe. 

ASHLEY BROMPTON: Hi, everyone. This is Ashley. I'm just going to pop on, because we only have a few minutes left. And I did want to Pose a quick question to our audience that I know you all were interested in, which is, is there anything else that you have been dealing with either in your work or in your organization, or you've been grappling with more systemically, that you want to talk about, or you want to think about? I think what our panelists today have really talks a lot about was wanting this to be the start of this conversation, and sort of, elevating this conversation to a national platform, but not ending it here. 

And so I want to make sure that we have a few minutes of time just to make sure that you all can put in the chat anything that you want to explore in the future. One of the things that came from today is we realize there's a whole wealth of information coming through our chat. So we're going to go through our chat logs, and compile information for you all and for the panelists. I think they were really interested in hearing some of the things that you all have come up with. 

So please, get that information in the chat. Get anything that you want to add in the chat. If you are interested in trauma informed interpretation, and finding trauma informed interpreters, our deaf access liaison Raylene Lotz put her contact information in the chat, and hopefully someone at Vera can put that information in the chat now. 

Please reach out to us or to her specifically for those kinds of things. We can also connect you to our panelists if you want more information about some of the strategies they've been using. I just want to make sure that we leave enough time for you all to say to say anything that you might be struggling with or grappling with that you want to talk about in the future. 

OK. Someone said that they've been thinking a lot about people who are undiagnosed. People who have disabilities that are undiagnosed, or don't necessarily have a clear definition of what's going on with them, and how to navigate specifically, survivors or victims of domestic violence who have an intellectual disability, but don't necessarily have a diagnosis. So that's something that is really important to think about. I don't know if any-- Maria, maybe you have some thoughts on that today, and then we can have further conversation about it at another time. 

MARIA ARMSTRONG: Hi, it's Maria. Yeah, the thing I try to consider is that a diagnosis isn't necessarily the valuable thing. For me it's about being able to get to know somebody, and being able to help, in real time, navigating what their needs are, and having multiple resources available to see what works. So my strategy has been to try to have as many different things available so that when you're working with a specific individual, that that's something you do as a team. I know that one of the downfalls of a diagnosis, or an actual term that we use is that it kind of puts people in a box, and then you create assumptions around that. And the one thing we want to avoid is the assumptions. 

ASHLEY BROMPTON: Thanks, Maria. And they also talked about, in a follow up comment while you were speaking, how to connect them to resources. Because oftentimes resources are directly connected to having a diagnosis in many states. You kind of have to have that label to connect to resources. Liza, if you want to talk more about this, please email us at cvs@vera.org, that goes for any of you. We're happy to have further conversations, connect you to Maria or to other folks that might be able to think through that problem with you, and something that you struggle with. 

And we appreciate so much, all of you today coming out. Cvs@vera.org is the email address, I know one of my colleagues is putting it in the chat. The chat is just scrolling a lot. So apologies for that. But we will again, be compiling some of the valuable tips and things that people put in the chat, and we will distribute that to you all, and are happy to make any connections that. 

We really appreciate the time that everyone took today. And thank you so much to our panelists who did such a fantastic job despite the fact that they may have been nervous, they did a great job. And we appreciate you so much. Thank you to our interpreters, and our captioning as well. And have a great day, everyone. We will see you soon.